Friday, August 05, 2005

Active Hall of Fame Pitchers

Pitchers

It's very difficult to differentiate a Hall of Fame pitcher from a non-Hall of Fame pitcher early in a career. The difference is usually longevity. The years from 30-40 have been very kind to many pitchers in MLB today. The problem with projecting pitchers is that there's no way of knowing who will be able to pitch effectively until the age of 40. Doc Gooden looked to be a sure bet before his career came to a screeching halt. Kerry Wood struck out 20 batters in a game at the age of 20. In the seven year since, he has 70 wins. He's never won more than 14 games in a season. Wood is proof that you can never be sure with a pitcher. On the other side, when Curt Schilling was 30, I would've bet quite a bit of money that he wasn't going to make the Hall of Fame. He had a grand total of 52 wins. After four seasons, Tom Glavine's record was 33-41. Sometimes the best young pitchers disappear before we ever knew what happened. Other times, a marginal pitcher matures into an elite pitcher after seven or eight big league seasons. That is why I'm having a particularly tough time projecting Roy Halladay, Roy Oswalt, Barry Zito, and Johan Santana. However, I do have a "gut feeling" on these players that leads me to believe that two will make it to Cooperstown.

In: (11)


Locks: (6)

Roger Clemens
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Pedro Martinez

Mariano Rivera Rivera is a lock for the Hall. He’ll likely end up second on the all-time saves list. His career numbers are absurd. His ERA is 2.34. His Whip is 1.05 and his batting average against is 2.12. Not to mention, he’s having the best season by a relief pitcher ever. His ERA is .83 and his Whip is .76.

Trevor Hoffman Hoffman will be the all-time saves leader when his career is over. Hoffman has been brilliant over a long period of time. Most closers have one but not the other. Franco was consistent over time but not brilliant. Gagne was brilliant but not over time. Hoffman has both. Hoffman’s numbers are actually right on par with Rivera’s. He has the same Whip and a better batting average against.

Just needs more time: (5)

Tom Glavine ESPN thinks that Glavine belongs in the same category as the "lock" pitchers. I won’t go that far. Glavine has been one of the best pitchers in the majors since he broke into the league. He has two Cy Young awards and five twenty-win seasons. However, his ERA is quite low compared to the locks in this category at 3.48. His batting average against is shockingly high for a player being considered for the Hall of Fame at .256. His WHIP is below average at best at 1.31. Other than the number in the win column, Glavine’s numbers are not very impressive. However, a pitcher is generally judged on three basic things; 1).ERA , 2). Wins, and 3). Winning percentage. Glavine’s career winning percentage is .600. He has 269 career wins which is a considerable amount for this era. Glavine will get into the HOF but he’s not in the same category as Clemens, Maddux, Big Unit and Pedro.

John Smoltz Smoltz is every bit as deserving as Dennis Eckersley. Smoltz won the Cy Young in 1996 when he won 24 games. He then converted to the closer role where he recorded over 150 saves in three seasons leading the league in 2002. His career ERA, Whip, and batting average against are all significantly better than Glavine’s. There’s no question that Smoltz has been the better pitcher. The only category in which it doesn’t show is the win column. Smoltz only has 174 career wins. Aside from his 24 win season in 1996, Smoltz has never won more than 17 games. In fact, he’s only won more than 15 games twice. Smoltz has been plagued by low run support but his secondary stats tell all we need to know. He’s a Hall of Famer ahead of Glavine.

Curt Schilling Schilling will get in but not from his career numbers. He’ll get in because he was a dominant pitcher for ten years. He was the reason that two franchises won a World Series. He combined with the Big Unit to form the most devastating 1-2 punch since Koufax and Drysdale. He’ll be remembered as a big game pitcher. His bloody ankle will go down as folk lore. Don’t get me wrong, his career numbers aren’t awful. He has three seasons of 21 wins or more. His career ERA is 3.36. His Whip is a very impressive 1.12. He has 187 career wins. He’ll probably finish somewhere around 225. Schilling won’t ever have the win total of Tom Glavine but Schilling has clearly been the better pitcher. Sometimes career stats don’t tell the whole story and that’s the case here.

Roy Oswalt Based on what he’s accomplished so far, Oswalt is well on his way to Cooperstown. His ERA is a paltry 2.97. He has one 20-win season under his belt as well as a 19-win season. He has 77 career wins at the age of 27. His career winning percentage is .690. If Oswalt can avoid serious injury, he has a great chance at the Hall.

Roy Halladay Halladay has a chance to follow in Schilling’s footsteps. Halladay already has a 20 win season and a 19 win season. He was well on his way to his second 20 win season this year before he fractured his leg. He won the AL Cy Young award in 2003. Halladay’s career numbers don’t jump out at you (3.70 ERA) but he is one of the premier talents in baseball. Schilling did all of his resume building during the second half of his career. Halladay is ahead of Schilling’s pace when he was 28. Like most pitchers, Halladay’s case will depend on whether he can avoid injuries. He hasn’t done a very good job of that so far but I have to think his hard luck will end soon.


Not in:

Mike Mussina Mike Mussina could’ve been a Hall of Famer but something went wrong. While other pitchers were picking up Cy Youngs and twenty-win seasons, Mussina sat idly by. A pitcher's resume is incomplete without those accomplishments. He has five seasons of 18 wins or more. His career winning % is .645 and that has actually decreased since he joined the Yankees. He has 221 career wins. He’s 37 years old. If he averages 15 wins a year for the next six years, he will get to 300 wins. That would get him in. But, I don’t think he’ll pitch until he’s 43.

Johan Santana I was surprised to see how unimpressive Santana’s career stats are up to this point. He just hadn’t been given the chance to start as much as most pitchers. In fact, last season was the first time he’s ever had more than 18 starts. The results were ridiculous as Santana won the AL Cy Young award. His Whip was a ridiculous .92. Santana is only 26. He’s not a candidate for 300 wins based on his career up to this point but he is a candidate for the Hall of Fame. I think he’ll be the great pitcher in baseball once all of the 40+ pitchers that dominate the game today retire. I'd put his odds of making the HOF at 49.999% so I have to leave him off the "in" list.

Barry Zito Believe it or not, Zito actually has the best resume of the "Big Three" pitchers. Despite struggling last year and parts of this year, Zito has 82 career wins and he's only 27. In contrast, Johan Santana has 43 wins and he's less than a year younger than Zito. Zito won the Cy Young award in 2002. I don't think anyone really knows what caused the drop off in production over the last two seasons but if that trend continues, Zito won't be anywhere near Cooperstown. However, of active pitchers under the age of 30, Zito has one of the best resumes to date.

Tim Hudson I was surprised to see that Hudson is already 30 years old. He's three years older than Zito and has only 17 more wins. Hudson's ERA is pretty good at 3.34 but he isn't a dominate pitcher. He hasn't won a Cy Young. He's a good bet for 200 career wins but probably not much more than that. Hudson will be remembered as a very good pitcher but not a Hall of Famer.

Mark Mulder Mulder's in a better position than Hudson since he has 92 wins and is two years younger. However, Mulder's ERA is a robust 3.90. Wins go along way but they won't overcome a mediocre ERA. Mulder will continue to be an above average pitcher but he won't make the Hall of Fame.

Mark Buehrle Before this season, I wouldn't have included Buerhle in any HOF talk. He's always been a decent pitcher but his ERA has been less than spectacular. This year he's been a completely different pitcher. Nobody in the league is as efficient as Buerhle. He works the quickest games in the league and has a career best ERA at 2.96. If Buerhle keeps getting better, I can see him making a run at the Hall.

Bartolo Colon Colon has been Mr. Consistent. He has won at least 14 games in each of the last eight seasons. He has one 20 win season and two 18 win seasons. He has 130 wins but at 32, he's way off the mark of a Hall of Fame career. His ERA is right around 4.00. He's very good but not good enough.

Kevin Brown In his prime, Kevin Brown was as good as they come. His stuff is filthy. In fact, I’ll go on the record in saying that Brown would’ve made the Hall of Fame had he been healthy throughout his career. Where the average pitcher has anywhere from 33-35 starts per season, Brown had seasons of 28, 26, 25, 26, 19, 10, 22 and 13. It’s hard to imagine that he has been able to win 211 games with all of those partial seasons. His career ERA is very impressive at 3.28. He has one twenty-win season and no Cy Young awards.

John Franco Franco is second on the all-time list in saves. He’s the active leader and has led the league three times in this category. His career ERA is 2.84. Here is the problem with Franco’s career; he’s never saved more than 40 games in a season and he’s only saved more than 32 saves in a season four times. He has saved at least 29 games 12 different times. For a relief pitcher to get into the Hall of Fame, they need to have dominant seasons. Franco is just your average closer who happened to have a longer career than most. Not having a 40 win season is saying a lot. Mariano Rivera has five. Armando Benitez has three. Trevor Hoffman has six. Jose Mesa has four. Smoltz has three. Franco has zero. A player must be dominating to get into the Hall of Fame. I don’t think Franco was dominating; consistent, but not dominating.

11 comments:

Anonymous said...

I don't know about some of this. I agree, Schilling will probably make the Hall because of his reputation, but Kevin Brown seems to have him beat in a lot of stats. If Schilling gets in, Brown sort of has to by comparison. That makes me think that once people look at Schillings numbers, he may not get in. Also, Halladay is a tremendous stretch. I will be shocked if he gets in. I agree that he is awesome, but he has a lot of padding the stats to go to even have a chance. Finally, Mark Mulder has a legitimate chance if he remains with the Cardinals and has a long career. He will post 20 wins for the forseeable future in that organization. Who knows though.

Tony said...

When I look at the pitching scene, I find it interesting that we have pitchers over 35 like Johnson, Clemens, Maddux, Smoltz, Glavine, Schilling, that have put up some sure fire HOF careers.

Then I think of all the young guys that are good but you can't really make any prediction yet. Peavy, Harden, Prior, Bonderman, and the other 25 and unders. They all have a good shot, the key perhaps being that they all started their careers so young.

That's the over 35, and the under 25. So how do those youngsters continue on their path to reach the level of those Hall of Famers?

Looking at those 26-30 year olds, you'll see names like Halladay, Zito, Santana, Hudson, Mulder, Carpenter, Oswalt. There are a lot of good pitchers in those groups. Some started younger than the others, some are only now coming in to there own. Some bursted on the scene, some nagged by injuries. They are all aces, but some of them seem to have already lost their way to the Hall.

The picture only gets more clouded. While those 30 and under still have half their career ahead of them, and all of them have much to say about how they'll be remembered, the group between 31-35 seems empty.

Pedro is a lock, for sure, but there seems quite a drop off after him. Clement, Millwood, Schmidt, Pettitte, Matt Morris. How many of those names belong in the HOF. Schmidt has had a couple of good years, but played on some bad teams, and only really found his groove recently (and may have lost it again this year) The others are solid, yet nowhere near spectacular.

Most of the names I mentioned don't even compare to a Mussina. Good job Jake, I don't think I have any differences. Though, if Mussina only ever pitched against the Tigers, he'd be the best pitcher of all time.

Bonderman!!!!

Tony said...

Brown vs Schilling

Games Started
Brown 476
Schilling 373

Wins-Losses-%
Brown 211-144-59.4%
Schilling 187-127-59.6%

Innings
Brown 3256.1
Schilling 2846.0

K's
Brown 2397
Schilling 2781

K's per 9 innings
Brown 6.62
Schilling 8.79

ERA-WHIP-Batting average
Brown 3.28-1.22-.249
Schilling 3.36-1.12-.237

Walks-BB's per 9 innings
Brown 901-2.49
Schilling 645-2.04

Do I really need to go further. Kevin Brown beats Schilling in a lot of stats?!?

I guess Brown has more career wins, and that's the only thing. Nothing else is really even close.

Brown has 1 year over 18 wins. Schilling has 3 over 20.

Brown has 72 complete games with 17 shutouts in his 476 starts. Schilling has 82 complete games and 19 shutouts in his 373 starts!!!!

I like Brown, I wish injuries didn't seem to have bothered him as much as they have, but Schilling is easily better than Brown.

Did I mention Schilling has 21 saves to Browns 0. Well, that comparison really doesn't matter.

Though, Schilling does have more Rings, and a World Series MVP to his name, and those count.

LOMBAOWSKI said...

Look, I don't want to hear anything about Curt Schilling and the Hall of Fame. What a farging joke. JACK MORRIS!!!! JACK MORRIS!!! If Jack Morris and his 254 wins, 2500 K's, 3800 IP, 175 complete games, and three world series rings where he was the #1 pitcher on two teams isn't in, then Schilling shouldn't even be considered. Did Schilling throw a ten inning complete game shutout in Game seven of the World Series? No. I am not going to sleep well until Jack gets in and if guys like Schilling or God help us, Kevin Brown gets in...I'm gonna puke. I'll fly to the ceremony and puke.

Smoltz is in as well because of his postseason stats and I agree with all of Jake's guys. Talking about anyone who is under thirty is somewhat futile to me but whatever. If this was 1981 we'd be talking about how Mike Moore, Floyd Bannister, and Bob Knepper were on their way to the hall. That just doesn't work.

But to reiterate, no talk of Curt Schilling or anyone of his ilk should be considered for the HOF until Jack Morris is bronzed. YOU HEARD?

LOMBAOWSKI said...

Oh but you think it's just because Jack was a Tiger? Step. Goose Gossage was the most dominate closer this side of Mariano Rivera and there gonna put Bruce "three piece" Sutter in next year? What about Lee Smith?

Gossage had more saves, more playoff moments, and invented the modern day mold of a closer. Lee Smith has 178 more saves than Bruce Sutter! 178! I just can't believe that Gossage who was feared and admired would be passed over for Bruce Sutter who outside of those fireman awards contributed nothing to baseball folklore. I'm just sick. Lee Smith would be behind Gossage on my list but both deserve a spot before that stiff Sutter. Don't get me started.

LOMBAOWSKI said...

Candidates eligible for future elections for the first time through the BBWAA vote include: 2006: Will Clark, Dwight Gooden, Ozzie Guillen, Orel Hershisher, Walt Weiss and John Wetteland; 2007: Harold Baines, Jose Canseco, Eric Davis, Tony Gwynn, Mark McGwire, Paul O’Neill, Cal Ripken, Jr., and Bret Saberhagen; 2008: Shawon Dunston, David Justice and Tim Raines; 2009: Mark Grace and Matt Williams; 2010: Edgar Martinez and Robin Ventura.

Where the hell is Brook Jacoby?

Jake said...

Jack Morris won 20+ games three times. He was the winningest pitcher of the 80's. He won three world series which included the unbelievable 10 inning shutout. There are two things keeping him out. 1)His winning percentage is only .577 and 2). His career ERA is 3.90. The league average throughout his career was only 4.08. Just to put that in perspective, Curt Schilling's career ERA entering the 2004 season was 3.32. The league average throughout his career has been 4.34. Schilling gives you 24% off the league ERA average. Morris gives you 4% off the league ERA average. It's really not even close. Schilling has Morris beat in every category except for wins. And as far as who I'd want on my team, you'd have to include Babe Ruth with Jack Morris for me to pick him over Schilling. Morris might have somewhat of a case for the HOF but not at the expense of Schillng. These are two completely different arguments. Morris was a big game pitcher. However, there's a 0 percent chance Morris makes it.

Lombaowski said...

Babe Ruth? 0 percent chance? Come on. Wins (70 more), complete games (double), world series wins, and remember oh wise one...Schilling has never been a #1 starter. He was a distant #2 behind Randy Johnson and red ankle or not, Pedro Martinez was the man. His chance is this year. We'll see. Morris was #1 on the Tigers and Twins and #1A beside Dave Stewart with the Jays. Also remember, and you may be too young, that Jack Morris was known to throw right down the pipe when he had a three run lead and say hit me. He was eating up innings and if he was a modern day player having to only pitch six before the set-up, set-up guy comes on, his ERA would have been a run lower. Think about it.

Jake said...

You're barking up the wrong tree comparing Morris to Schilling. Morris has Schilling beat in one important category and that's wins. Complete games are irrelevant in in this day and age. Schilling led the league twice in innings pitched. Morris led the league once. The only reason to mention CG's is if you're implying that Schilling didn't go deep into games. This is not true. I would take that any day over complete games. Your point that Morris' ERA would've been a run lower if he pitched in this age holds no weight. Schilling actually averages more innings per start than Morris did and Morris pitched in an era when starting pitches threw more innings! So if you're saying Morris' ERA would've been lower had he only pitched 6 innings per game, then you have to say Schillings would be too.When I say that Schilling has Morris beat in every important stat, I'm talking important stats, not complete games or shutouts. It's not even close. Schilling has been by far the better pitcher. In every measurable way, Schilling beats Morris. It's not Schilling's fault that he was on the same team as Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez. That has nothing to do with this. How does that make Schilling any less of a pitcher? Compare their numbers. Don't get in to someone being a #1 starter. If Morris and Schilling were on the same team, Schilling would easily be the number one starter. I wouldn't be saying anything if the numbers were close. But, they're not. Schilling is far and away the better pitcher. Here is a comparison of Schilling to Morris.

ERA
Schilling 3.32
Morris 3.90

ERA compared to league average
Schilling 24% better
Morris 4% better

Whip
Schilling 1.11
Morris 1.30

Winning percentage
Schilling 60.0%
Morris 57.7%

Batting average against
Schilling .237
Morris .247

Post-season wins
Schilling 7
Morris 6

Post-season ERA
Schilling 2.06
Morris 3.80

Cy Young runner up
Schilling 3
Morris 0

Strike outs per 9 innings
Schilling 8.8
Morris 5.8

SO to BB ration
Schilling 4.30
Morris 1.80

If you want to measure complete games and shutouts, you have to put them in context to the era that each pitcher pitched in. CG's and SO's were different when Morris pitched. If you want to compare, compare how each player did with relation to the league.

Times led the league in complete games:

Schilling 4
Morris 1

Times finished in top 3 in Complete games:

Schilling 9
Morris 7

Times finished in top 3 in
Shutouts:

Schilling 4
Morris 2



If you want to talk about Morris' credentials for the Hall of Fame, I suggest you compare him to someone like Tom Glavine. I have no problem making a case for Morris being in the Hall of Fame. However, I do take issue with the belief that Morris was better than Schilling. It's just not close. I understand you want Morris in the Hall of Fame but that doesn't change the fact that Schilling has been a much better pitcher than Morris.

When I say that Morris has a 0% chance of making the Hall of Fame, I'm not saying I think he has no argument. I'm saying that he will not be voted in by the voters. He doesn't even come close on the yearly Hall of Fame ballots.

Here are the voting results for Morris. You need 75% to get elected. Morris doesn't even have half the needed votes.

Jack Morris
Year Election Votes Pct
2000 BBWAA 111 22.24
2001 BBWAA 101 19.61
2002 BBWAA 97 20.55
2003 BBWAA 113 22.78
2004 BBWAA 133 26.28
2005 BBWAA 172 33.33

LOMBAOWSKI said...

I don't agree with your argument line. A 70 win discrepancy in wins is huge. I see Schilling's lifetime stats and consider everything that was said but Morris should be compared to Schilling for a number of reasons. They both were elite pitchers in their generations and both deserve consideration for Cooperstown but in my opinion, Morris is more worthy. I will not think differently unless Schilling completes his career with three or four seasons of being one of the best. Talk to you in 2009.

Anonymous said...

Well, it seems to me that the only three stats that even matter about a pitcher are wins, era and strikeouts, with strikeouts really meaning didly squat. If Brown has a better era than schilling and more wins, that makes him a better pitcher hands down. It's simple. All that other crap about whip's and oba really don't mean anything, so they shouldn't even be brought up in a discussion. Is it better to give up a double and walk two but no runs, or a solo homer. Maybe to Tony, the solo homer looks better. Anyways, I agree that it is a joke that Jack Morris is not in the Hall. He was one of the premier pitchers of the 80's and early 90's, which is a long time, certainly long enough to get into the hall.

 

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